ALISON BEARD: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Enterprise Review. I’m Alison Beard. Most of us know that we are able to study a terrific deal from folks in different disciplines. So that you’ll discover enterprise leaders who’ve studied social sciences, like psychology or regulation, utilized sciences, like math and engineering, and humanities, like historical past or languages.
However our visitor as we speak believes that there’s a area executives and managers don’t think about carefully sufficient. They are saying all of the inventive work that’s gone into the hit music made by artists like Beyonce, Woman Gaga, Bjork, Pharrell, Justin Timberlake, Prince, Yo-Yo Ma, Bon Jovi, or The Beatles will also be utilized to our company endeavors. Whether or not it’s changing into higher at experimentation, collaboration, or reinvention, we are able to study a ton from these musicians.
With me as we speak is Panos Panay, the outgoing senior vice chairman for international technique and innovation at Berklee Faculty of Music, and the incoming co-president of the Recording Academy, which presents the Grammys, and Michael Hendrix, associate and international design director at IDEO, the design and innovation consulting agency.
Collectively, they wrote the e-book Two Beats Forward: What Musical Minds train us about innovation. And so they’re right here to elucidate why we should always all suppose extra like musicians, even when we are able to’t carry a tune. Panos, Michael, thanks a lot for being right here.
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Thanks, Alison.
PANOS PANAY: Thanks.
ALISON BEARD: Why have you ever pinpointed musicians specifically as vital folks to study from versus one other type of artist or an athlete or a coach?
PANOS PANAY: Properly, partially, it’s as a result of we’ve labored with musicians all of our lives, we’ve been musicians. I’ve personally been immersed in music and the music trade since I used to be very younger. In order that’s been our expertise, however we additionally imagine that these mindsets that we describe in Two Beats Forward are fairly distinctive to the music makers on the market.
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Properly, one of many attention-grabbing issues about musicians is the way in which they see the world. You requested about musicians versus athletes, for instance. When you consider any sport, the principles hardly ever change. And after they do, it’s fairly controversial. However as a result of the principles don’t change, the staff, the variety of gamers on the sphere doesn’t change. You’ll be able to optimize on your roles. You’ll be able to optimize on your efficiency.
Music doesn’t work that approach. Music is all about dynamism. It’s about improvisation. It’s about creativity and unlocking the potential of each other. What we’re advocating for is adopting extra of that mindset that focuses much less on creating grasp plans and optimization. It focuses extra on constructing collaboration and respect between friends, after which transferring into these relationships with openness and curiosity, with expectation for brand spanking new outcomes that weren’t deliberate.
ALISON BEARD: And it appears apparent, however you say the very first thing that musicians do is hear. And that’s one thing that individuals within the company world may do much more of. So how do musicians hear in a approach that yields new insights?
PANOS PANAY: Alison, I believe we dwell in an period of an excessive amount of broadcasting and never sufficient listening. What units musicians aside is just not a lot simply the way in which that they go about expressing themselves, however their means to listen to and hear and course of, if you’ll, data in a approach that no one else does. They make house for listening. They find time for listening. They perceive that music is as a lot the motion, if you’ll, the notice, as it’s the house and the time and the openness in between the notes.
And we really feel like within the enterprise world, there’s a lack of a aware time spent on really listening to the atmosphere round you, be it your workers, be it your prospects, or finally, the broader adjustments which might be occurring round us. Issues are transferring maybe so quick that we don’t actually make a aware effort to gradual it down and listen.
ALISON BEARD: And also you draw some very clear parallels between what musicians do and what entrepreneurs do, in that they do consciously experiment and create demos. Speak slightly bit extra about how The methods by which musicians do these issues, maps to what we are able to see working in organizations.
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Properly, demoing is similar to prototyping, and it begins with this concept of merely sharing your intention with someone else. When a track concept comes about, it’s uncooked. And really, within the e-book, we have now playlist on the finish of every chapter, so you may hear some well-known demos to get a sense of this.
ALISON BEARD: As quickly as I learn that chapter, I Googled up Prince. And I watched his demo of Manic Monday, which was clearly made well-known by The Bangles, however Prince wrote it.
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Yeah. And so once you heard that demo, you heard the intention of the track. The Bangles understood what Prince was making an attempt to speak by that prototype or that demo. After which clearly, they made it theirs with their very own character and their very own voice, nevertheless it’s a transparent line from A to B. And sharing early, sharing usually by demoing is a observe we are able to all do repeatedly at work.
Now, what occurs usually is folks. Folks fear about criticism due to lack of perfection. They maintain concepts again. They self-edit. They’re usually incentivized to try this by the group itself, as a result of the way in which you present up at work, so to talk, can usually have penalties on whether or not you’re promoted or not. However the fact is, sharing sooner usually helps get to concepts quicker, and it opens house for different folks to collaborate with you and construct upon these concepts.
PANOS PANAY: Demoing or prototyping is all about kind of a constructive motion. You’re daring to take a step. Within the e-book, we talked about numerous examples of this occurring to musicians, like Ike Turner, for instance, and the invention of distorted sound, which modified the trajectory of contemporary music endlessly, which was merely, they had been driving to a gig and the amplifier fell off the again of the truck, and after they plugged it in, it simply sounded distorted. It’s daring to experiment or daring to decide to an motion irrespective of the end result that always results in breakthroughs.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. One in every of my favourite traces was from an interview you probably did with Justin Timberlake, who mentioned he dares to suck within the studio, however the studio is clearly a very forgiving atmosphere the place persons are riffing and making an attempt out new lyrics and new melodies and new chords. How do you create a piece atmosphere by which folks really feel snug doing that after they’re not Justin Timberlake within the studio?
PANOS PANAY: You already know what’s humorous, Alison? For the reason that e-book got here out at Berklee, all of our executives learn the e-book, and it’s now grow to be frequent for folks to say, “Look, I’m going to dare to suck, however I’m going to go forward and say this.” I believe it’s simply merely a reframing of what’s the idea of a studio. I imply, if you consider it, you mentioned it’s a straightforward place to experiment. Properly, it’s really fairly not as a result of it prices some huge cash even as we speak to be in a recording studio.
So for us, it’s extra about creating the situations within the office or different locations the place it’s protected to go forward and say one thing and make a mistake, or take an motion and embrace imperfection as usually a way to producing or creating one thing that possibly you weren’t intending, nevertheless it’s the very factor that you simply had been meant to have all alongside. So for me, that is the place the managers can play a giant position. Are you able to create the situations, the atmosphere the place folks really feel okay to dare to suck? And simply sitting again and seeing what occurs, what sort of loopy concepts come about.
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: I imply, this is likely one of the greater classes we discovered as we had been writing the e-book. We did a chapter on producing and in that chapter, we spoke with Jimmy Irving and we spoke with Hank Shocklee, one of many founders of Public Enemy, T Bone Burnett. All of them had been saying the identical factor. And Panos used the phrase, creating the situations. All of us talked about that in a roundabout way, that they felt just like the job of a producer, and I relate to this as a inventive director, as an govt, the job of the producer is to grasp the expertise they’re working with, perceive their strengths after which have the ability to come alongside them, create the chance for them to make use of these strengths after which assist them develop within the locations the place they’re weak. And that’s very empowering for them and it’s additionally, I believe, empowering for the producer.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. I really feel like an HBR communicate, it is perhaps referred to as main from behind.
PANOS PANAY: I used to be about to make use of that expression. In some ways, we’re used to the idea of management, someone who’s main within the entrance, charging forward, issuing orders and persons are following, if you’ll, these instructions. However what we’re discovering is that the most effective producers on this planet, they’re expert at trusting their expertise, understanding the distinctiveness of that expertise and creating the situations and the platforms, if you’ll, for the expertise to precise itself.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. Let’s discuss slightly bit extra about collaboration. We talked about how Prince works with The Bangles, how musicians work with well-known producers, however the tales that you simply inform in regards to the behind the scenes collaboration to make albums like Beyonce’s Lemonade, for instance, are actually attention-grabbing since you see the music trade actually being a shining instance for leveraging, not only a few factors of view, however dozens. So how can we start to use that to our work lives?
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Yeah. Beyonce is a grasp collaborator. We don’t consider her usually that approach as a result of one, she goes by her title, she doesn’t have a band title. What she reveals us although is that in some ways, she takes this producer’s mindset by which she’s trying on the expertise of many individuals round her and asking, how can I work with you in a roundabout way to unlock one thing new for one another? So a track like Maintain Up had 15 songwriters, which is difficult to think about that you could have 15 songwriters for a track, however she did have a imaginative and prescient for, let’s say among the components, however she didn’t know the way that was precisely going to return collectively, proper? She’s slightly little bit of working with Ezra Koenig, who had taken slightly bit from Karen O.
She’s a fan of MNEK, requested him to return in. She’s pals with Diplo, requested him to return in. And all of those totally different components begin to add as much as one thing new and actually a genre-defined track, actually sensible lyrics that she had pieced collectively. And if she had got down to say, I’m going to put in writing a track with 15 collaborators, I believe it might have been a practice wreck. However what she did is she simply saved organically constructing with these totally different friends whom she noticed as friends to get to that remaining final result.
I imply, that may be actually uncomfortable, I believe, within the enterprise atmosphere to suppose, I’m going to spend money on placing this staff collectively. I’m unsure what they’re going to provide you with, nevertheless it comes again to perception within the staff itself, perception on this collaborators itself. And Beyonce lives this, she believes within the collaboration and the facility of it to end result within the outcomes she’s hoping for.
ALISON BEARD: And also you all have seen leaders who aren’t Beyonce and do that kind of factor, pull actually nice expertise collectively and simply have them deal with an issue or a problem and provide you with a brand new and sudden approach of fixing it.
PANOS PANAY: Yeah. I really feel that we frequently consider some leaders, even someone like Steve jobs as kind of these, once more, prototypical lone chargers who kind of subject these edicts and issues occur. However even within the scenario of Steve Jobs, I believe one of many issues that he’s most likely not acknowledged for is his means in his second tenure at Apple to assemble a staff of wonderful people, most of that are nonetheless there even nearly a decade I believe after his demise, that collectively have been capable of make Apple into the world’s, relying on the week, most dear firm.
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: The product mannequin of IDEO is mainly this concept of placing collectively supergroups, proper? . It’s not nearly placing random groups collectively and hoping issues occur. Choosing the proper expertise is essential, and you may see this. My children, they’re all out of highschool now, however they had been in challenge studying environments by which they might be placed on random groups with different classmates and it might usually be a nasty expertise for everyone. Somebody didn’t contribute in any respect, the instructor’s grading them. Though two folks did the work, three folks didn’t, it’s a multitude. And that’s due to the randomness of the groups that you simply’ve put collectively. So when you consider collaboration at work, team-based initiatives are nice, however we do should be very conscious of how we select that expertise and put them collectively. In any other case, it has potential to fail.
ALISON BEARD: So we’ve talked rather a lot about innovation, however I do suppose execution can be actually vital for our viewers. And one factor that I discovered attention-grabbing, possibly slightly counterintuitive, is your suggestion that like musicians, it’s okay for leaders to make selections partly on feeling and instinct that we should always preserve this experimental course of going and speedy iteration, et cetera. It’s like whereby does the rubber meet the street and you’ve got a product that goes to be nice, and then you definately simply deal with making it nearly as good as potential?
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: I imply I believe we’re in a dynamic world and there are some issues which might be performed, however most issues are in some model. And there was a poet, a French poet, I don’t bear in mind his title, however he mainly got here up with the concept nice artwork is just not completed, it’s deserted. You mainly simply get to the purpose the place you may let go. And all through all of our interviews, mainly all of the artists had been saying the identical factor. You retain engaged on issues till you allow them to go.
Kanye West is an instance of an artist who even after letting go, got here again and adjusted an album many times over the course of three months to the frustration of the music trade. However he was enthusiastic about totally different variations of that report, Lifetime of Pablo, and the way he wished the sound, altering track order, altering songs, altering preparations. So I suppose what I’m advocating for in that’s performed will not be the best psychological mannequin within the digital period that we have to begin adopting extra of an natural organic psychological mannequin for this stuff which might be continuously evolving.
PANOS PANAY: Properly even merchandise that had been as soon as considered performed, even that’s altering. Take a look at vehicles. You purchase a Tesla as we speak and it’s primarily software program pushed. The type of the automobile could not change, however a lot of the underlying operation of the automobile, even its effectivity, is altering from software program updates. In order the world is transferring increasingly to bits and bytes and away from atoms, I believe you will note that nothing is admittedly ever performed. And I imagine we’ll start to see this manifest, particularly as we’re experiencing all new computational energy, increasingly units tapping into the cloud. I believe that you will note loads of this concept of issues evolving and changing into, and by no means fairly feeling performed insert itself in all merchandise that had been as soon as considered remaining.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah. You even have entire chapter on remixes. So how can folks within the enterprise world try this means of trying again to drag ahead into one thing that’s extra related as we speak for his or her prospects?
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Yeah, I imply a lot of innovation is solely transferring what works from one trade into one other trade, proper? And that’s actually the remixing concept. I can take the beats from a jazz report, loop them and rap excessive and I’ll get a hip hop track. And Hank Shocklee, whom I discussed earlier, was only a genius at doing this, recognizing the patterns. And that’s the place it begins, I believe, is it’s an instinct the place you could find patterns throughout industries and begin to acknowledge the place alternative may overlap. In our world, you possibly can say for instance, the pay on the pump fuel station is an instance of a transference from taking an ATM pad and placing it onto a fuel pump. And there’s loads of alternatives for us to be enthusiastic about that transference out there.
PANOS PANAY: And we have a tendency to think about innovation as beginning one thing new out of nothing. However usually innovation is about seeing issues which might be already there and envisioning them assembled otherwise and creating one thing new. It’s simply merely shuffling issues round.
ALISON BEARD: On the flip facet, you discuss in regards to the reinvention, that individuals like David Bowie, and Madonna, and Woman Gaga have discovered of their careers, and that’s really abandoning the previous and going onto one thing new. So how may I try this in my very own profession? How may our listeners? Or how can firms try this?
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Properly, the excellent news is that you simply as a person and also you as an organization can each do the identical factor. And we’ll look to David Bowie for some instruction right here. Bowie, on the finish of his profession mentioned, “Once I look again at 4 many years of all these characters I’ve had, from Aladdin Sane, to Skinny White Duke, to Halloween Jack, to Lazarus, I see that on the core, I’m a songwriter and I’ve written about three or 4 themes my complete life, issues like loneliness, isolation.”
And I believe that’s actually instructive as a result of once you consider Bowie, you consider somebody that’s continuously altering, don’t you? And each Madonna and Woman Gaga have mentioned they took that very same blueprint. However really what’s occurring is you will have an instance of someone who actually understands their core, understands what they’re good at, understands what they’re enthusiastic about, after which rotates the collaborators, the forged of characters, the concepts round that core concept. So attending to your core is definitely the key to with the ability to change. We share some tales about firms within the e-book that, Fujifilm was one, Nokia, Nationwide Geographic. They’ve all had to determine what their core is to allow them to evolve with the altering market.
However should you have a look at what every of them has performed, they actually did begin to perceive, I present infrastructure for communication, or I’ve the power to assist protect the standard of images, or have the power to assist talk tales about our local weather. Once they can boil it right down to that simplicity, they will change the actions round them pretty simply. And we have now to try this as people too. I believe particularly now, loads of us have been asking that query of ourselves anyway, due to the pandemic.
ALISON BEARD: It sounds such as you’re speaking about goal.
PANOS PANAY: I used to be about to make use of the phrase goal. Don’t confuse your product together with your goal or the opposite approach round. Or as a mentor of mine, who’s a founding father of Avid, a man referred to as Invoice Warner mentioned to me, “There’s invention after which there’s intention. Don’t confuse the 2.”
And I really feel that always as people, as organizations, we get too hung up on a specific id that we overlook what our goal or our intention is. And finally, that is what has distinguished nice artists, that is what distinguishes nice firms or nice people. They preserve altering, they preserve evolving, they preserve shedding a pores and skin, if you’ll, however they’re all the time someway recognizable. It doesn’t matter what, Bowie within the late 60s, or Bowie within the 2000s, proper earlier than his demise, you possibly can hear one notice sung by David Bowie and it’s David Bowie, the identical with Miles Davis, the identical with Madonna, the identical wit any variety of artists.
ALISON BEARD: Okay, final query, if I’m a supervisor, and even simply a person worker, what’s one factor that I can do at work tomorrow to be extra like David Bowie or Beyonce?
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: I’d begin with the collaboration idea we talked about earlier. Take into consideration your proficient peer set and ask not what they may create collectively, however who is perhaps attention-grabbing to have creating collectively.
PANOS PANAY: And I’d say, within the subsequent assembly that you simply’re in, and also you’re sitting there listening to folks discuss and an concept pops in your head, you will have two decisions. There’s the editor that claims, “Ah, I’ll sound foolish. Or folks could not like what I’ve to say.” Or the opposite selection is, I’ll dare to suck and I’ll simply go forward and throw my concept on the market and see what occurs. Select the latter.
ALISON BEARD: I adore it. I’ll strive to try this tomorrow. Panos, Michael, thanks a lot for being on the present.
PANOS PANAY: Thanks, Alison.
R. MICHAEL HENDRIX: Thanks.
ALISON BEARD: That’s Panos Panay, the outgoing Senior Vice President for World Technique and Innovation at Berkeley Faculty of Music, and incoming Co-President of the Recording Academy, which presents the Grammys. And Michael Hendrix, Accomplice and World Design Director at IDEO. They’re co-authors of the e-book Two Beats Forward: What Musical Minds Train Us About Innovation.
This episode was produced by Mary Dooe. We get technical assist from Rob Eckhardt. Adam Buchholz is our Audio Product Supervisor. Thanks for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. I’m Alison Beard.
https://hbr.org/podcast/2021/07/lessons-in-innovation-from-bowie-beyonc-and-more?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feedpercent3A+harvardbusiness+%28HBR.orgpercent29 | Classes in Innovation from Bowie, Beyoncé, and Extra